The bill, which the state
House of Representatives passed by a 33-27 vote Thursday, now goes to
Gov. Jan Brewer, a Republican and onetime small business owner who
vetoed similar legislation last year but has expressed the right of
business owners to deny service.
Full Article HERE
When is government going to stay out of places they don't belong? And when are we going to drop the phrase GAY RIGHTS...there should be no such phrase. HUMAN RIGHTS.... that's all we should be concerned with, because that's what WE ALL ARE . "Rights" should have NOTHING TO DO with who we are sexually attracted to unless we're referring to harm to children or sexual abuse. Seriously... grow up, America.
Just Sayin.
So, business owners are going point a finger, refuse service, or ask "are you gay?". Stupidity is alive and well these days. Damn it!!
ReplyDeleteAhhh but there's the rub! I believe that in this country none of us have the 'right' to force anyone to go against their beliefs. So although I might not agree with denying service over sexual orientation I also believe they have the right to do so without the government butting in. It's a slippery slope to force anyone (business or otherwise) to do something they don't believe in. What might be next?
ReplyDeleteGays are the only group left where discrimination is completely legal in most places. It's scary for those who are affected ... and shameful.
ReplyDeleteMy statement was not specifically against gays it was meant that as the proposed law stated "if against religious belief" the government should stay out of it. The law does not say just ban gays, men, whites, black's etc. Religious belief is something that the govt. should and must stay out of. IMHO
ReplyDeleteGood thing I don't care for the desert! Too bad because I know several Arizonians (did I make that up?) who are probably just disgusted by this. It's unfortunate when loud fools speak for the masses. The bottom line is these people are losing ground so quickly that they are becoming radical about what little they have left. And that's fine. There are plenty of business owners who know all money is green.
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ReplyDeleteSue, I do appreciate your voice in the conversation. I have to disagree that a company should have the right to refuse service to anyone just because they don't share the same sexual orientation or religious beliefs. I believe that should be against the law. If you are providing a public service, then discriminating amongst the "public" is shameful, something that should not be a part of our language anymore. I'm amazed that in this day and age, it's still part of the conversation.
Karen, I did not say that I agreed with the idea of discriminating against a certain group BUT remember that this is America and we all do have the right to our beliefs. Let the people vote with their $$ but I do NOT agree that any government should have the right to force a person or business to go against their religious beliefs. I am Catholic and I do not believe in abortion except to save the life of the mother and certainly as it seems some do as 'birth' control. I do believe in birth control which is against church teachings and I do no think that as a business owner I should be forced (as it is now with Obama Care) to give an employee an insurance policy that pays for abortions. I should not have to pay for something against MY religious belief and see the right of a business owner in AZ to refuse service to a gay againt that owners religious belief in the same vein. The wonderful thing about living in America is we have every RIGHT to our beliefs.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to civil rights? What happened to equality for all? What happened to freedom? Another travesty...:)JP
ReplyDeleteCorrect!!!! FREEDOM for ALL! I do not believe in ANY government having the RIGHT to dictate a person's belief whether it be religious or not. There is too much government intervention as it is. What if 'they' decide that believing in God is wrong because some are atheists or demand that atheists believe in God? Remove the color or gay issue, would a law that said that any business can sell to whomever they want be as controversial? I just believe that as citizens of the greatest country on earth we should be free to sell to whomever we want and refuse to do so to whomever we want. If the masses don't agree with our business decisions then we won't be in business for long. Let the market decide but don't force your (governments) belief on us. If I want to open a business that ONLY sells to gays would I be prevented doing so by a law? So If I want to open a business that only sells to 'straights' why should it be against the law.
ReplyDeleteI am sure you all believe I am homophobic but although I can't prove otherwise I am not. I am just someone who believes in FREEDOM for ALL.
Agree with you 1000%
ReplyDelete-Joan-
www.mvobsession.com
Well, actually government has tried to take our religious belief's away from us (those of us who believe in God). Which, in my HO is a travesty of justice in and of itself.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! Which is why I said in my first post that it is a slippery slope. Taking ANY rights away by government makes me wonder. Unfortunately there are too many who feel that govt. should regulate everything, after all it's 'in our best interest' that we just follow their rules. We have already lost so many freedoms that we need to wake up and understand that regulating everything in the name of the public good is NOT in our best interests! and that's MY opinion!
ReplyDeleteOMG, I've now heard everything. It seems we are going backwards instead of forwards. This is so sad. The only thing I can say is KARMA. You can't treat people poorly and expect that everything is going to go smoothly in your life.
ReplyDeletePerhaps I'm just a bit dense but I do not understand how allowing people/business to choose how to live their lives according to their religious belief is going backwards. The bill that AZ is proposing does not condone nor does it encourage mistreatment of any group. It just reinforces the right of the people to their "religious belief" which would be clear to anyone who reads the bill. Freedom is something we are losing at a faster and faster rate because we are too busy, 'afraid' (of being called homophobic, racist, etc.) rather than fight for our rights of free speech, freedom of expression and especially freedom of religion. May God help us stop this race before we lose what little freedom we have left.
ReplyDeleteI agree one million percent. The government should not be involved. That is all.
ReplyDeleteSue, I don't mean to continue to argue your point, but I don't understand how condoning, SUPPORTING any behavior that encourages mistreatment of a human being just because of their sexual or religious preferences ISN'T going backwards. I understand what you are saying about rights, but the way we treat people has to factor in. People believed they had a right to OWN people years ago. People believed if you had a certain shade of skin you couldn't use the same bathrooms as lighter skinned people. Most of us have grown enough to understand how horrible that notion is, but it was common practice years ago. Now you're saying you believe a business owner has a right to kick someone out of their restaurant because of who they chose to love or worship. I can't help, I think that's a gross injustice and regardless of trying to "keep our rights", it's inhumane and should not be a LAW.
ReplyDeleteAnd I understand your belief but again I don't believe that the government of either a state or country that prides itself in RELIGIOUS freedom has the right to force someone to go against their personal religious belief. As a Catholic I don't want to be forced to condone or pay for abortion. I'm sure a Jew would not want to be forced to serve pork in their restaurant, a Muslim forced to sell pork or even handle it. It is the religious belief that I object to having LAWS about, NOT the right of a gay or black or for that matter ANYONE to be free to purchase or enter a business. This is about religious belief not prejudice of any kind other than the right of an individual/business to live their life as THEIR GOD tells them is right. I might not think that denying service to gays is right but I DO believe that if someone's religion tells them it IS I have no RIGHT to deny them the RIGHT to do so and neither should the government.
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ReplyDeleteYou are, though, saying the government has the right to GIVE THE RIGHT to a person to treat someone horribly. Right? I can't see it any other way. And Sue.. if ANYONE'S GOD... says it's right to treat someone poorly just because they are different that you, I don't know how you can follow such a God and feel good about it. Just sayin.
Please don't try to twist my words. First I did NOT say my God tells me to treat people poorly and my point (which you do not seem to understand so I will try to explain more clearly) is that it is NOT Governments place to try to force someone to go against their religious belief as the proposed Arizona Law states. It would NOT give free rein to anyone to abuse others for any reason and I do not see politely refusing service to someone due to religious beliefs as abuse or poor treatment. What it does do IMO is protect the religious freedom an any business owner who feels they need to obey their religious teachings. No one forces someone to shop, eat, frequent ANY business so why should the business be FORCED to serve someone against religious belief??
ReplyDeleteI had hoped this would be a civil discussion and until your last post telling me that IF my GOD (and he doesn't) told me that I should/could not serve or believe in something was as you suggested a horrible GOD I thought it was. Sorry it disintegrated into this and just know that I do NOT discriminate against Gay, Black or anyone else but I do believe that government has gotten too far into peoples religion. After all Christians can no longer wish someone a Merry Christmas without perhaps 'offending' them.
I did not get into this conversation to offend anyone BUT I do believe that FREEDOM would be stifled if everyone was forced by Govt. to do things against their religion. Isn't that the reason we fought to have this country? Are we going to just quietly give away our freedoms just because someone might be offended?
If so it is a very sad day as this no longer seems to be the America I grew up in, One in which religious tolerance was not only expected but was also allowed WITHOUT prejudice.
You haven't offended me at all. I think it's clear you and I don't see the issue in the same way.
ReplyDeleteI didn't say your GOD said to treat people poorly. But you did bring religion into the conversation, and actually people against gay and lesbian love use religion as their justification. A restaurant deciding not to serve PORK on their menu is a far different way of expressing your religious beliefs than telling a couple you assume to be gay that they have to leave the table because you won't serve them due to their apparent sexual preferences.
I have not missed your point. But I think you are seriously missing mine.
That being said, I respect that your view is different than mine and I think conversation is very important, as well as seeing two sides of an issue as well.
Thank you for expressing what is most likely the opinion of those supporting that bill.
It just goes to show that the written word can sometimes be misconstrued, I apologize for reading as you thinking it was MY God that told me to not serve Gays. And the reason I "brought religion" into it is because if you read the proposed law it states that IF someone's religion tells them that serving Gays is wrong then they have the right to refuse service. As someone who has spent much of the past 17yrs. in parts of AZ and who hope to retire there soon I have to say that I have only encountered 1 person who was visibly intolerant to people who were 'different' than he. Yes I am sure that others I met probably were not as tolerant (poor choice of word but the best I can think of at the moment) as I BUT they were always infallibly pleasant. I believe this proposed law is because there have been too many 'intolerant' people who have demonized people who truly want to live by their religious beliefs. My daily reading of several newspapers from various areas of the state have too many stories about horrible things being done in the name of 'diversity' on BOTH sides. And while I'm sure this law will not stop such things perhaps it might make people think and discuss.
ReplyDeleteI find it refreshing when people can agree to disagree without resorting to name calling or other means of trying to force someone to just give up, accept that THEIR view is the RIGHT one, and walk away without really being heard.
Thank you!
ReplyDeleteWell, I cannot imagine asking every customer that came into my business if they believe this or that or the other thing. Why own a business if this is the case? Makes no f-ing sense to me.
I own a business. I stay out of everyone's church, bed, and, hopefully, head. I don't want to know what everyone believes. I live in this country so we can all think what we want.
But as a business owner I have to wonder why on earth would you limit your customer base this way.
Could it be because they're STUPID in their thinking? I would say, YES.
I volunteered a summer or so ago to make calls regarding Minnesota trying to pass an amendment to our state constitution where they defined marriage as between one man and one woman. The people that hid behind their religion amazed me, but I have to say I had great success turning people to a different way of thinking. I am also proud to say that the amendment was NOT passed.
Arizona needs a new way of thinking. I knew I didn't like dry air. ::hack::
Karen, first I'd like to thank you for your inspiring blog, second I'd like to thank you for being gutsy enough to tackle and debate, with grace, intelligence and most of all restraint such delicate social issues as this horrendous law in Arizona. I've been following you for about a year now and I know this is not the first time you've done so. People like Sue O just make me sad. Sad that bigotry and hatefulness come wrapped in packages of religious deception. The reality of this law in Arizona is a result of lawmakers, pretending to be acting in the name of religious freedoms have come to realize that Same Sex Marriage is and will become a law of the land in the US very soon, so they are moving on to other areas in order to continue their bigotry and hatred in the guise of Religious Freedoms under laws like this. This law too will be overturned by the Supreme court, yet there will be other variations of this law that continue to dog us. Just as legalized Abortion has been the law of the land for decades, dirty politicians and Religious fanatics (yes Sue, I said it!) continue to try and take away that right by passing laws on a state level that make it nearly impossible to obtain one. Be on the look out for the law that states a woman can obtain an Abortion on the third Wednesday of each week only if performed by a blind physician with no arms while standing on his or her head under 16' of water. I am all for Religious Freedoms, I personally believe your Religious beliefs should be private and practiced in your heart, your home and your church and when a person is in public they respect others Freedoms as well. I too worship a book of fiction and am so thankful that Candace Bushnell is my Religious leader. Karen, my best wishes to you and continued inspiration and topics for discussion that keep us on our toes with This Old House 2 :-) Mark
ReplyDeleteMark, I am afraid that YOU are the bigot. Where did you read that I would deny a woman the right to an abortion? If someone believes they should have an abortion then under the law they are allowed to do so. I would never force MY belief on another and will not allow others to force THEIR beliefs on me. I said I do not believe in abortion and that I do not want to be FORCED to pay for one against my religious beliefs. If YOU believed that something was against YOUR beliefs I would not want YOU forced to pay for it or otherwise be FORCED to believe in it.
ReplyDeleteAs far as WHAT I believe, this wonderful country allows me to believe it just as it allows YOU the right NOT to believe. That is what makes America the most FREE country on earth. Belittling someone for their belief makes YOU the the bigot not a person who feels you and I can have different beliefs. Calling the Bible a book of fiction just shows that you do NOT truly believe in religious freedom.
Deborah, the original reason the law is being proposed in AZ is because a same sex couple wanted a baker to make their wedding cake. The owner's religious beliefs made her explain that it was not something she felt she could in good conscience do. She never ASKED their sexual orientation she knew it because they told her. They became so upset they go a group together and picketed the bakery in such a way as to deny access to customers and the owner lost her business. She has stated she has no regrets because she could not bake the cake in good conscience. She also just happened to have an employee who was gay and she knew it. She just did not believe in gay marriage. It was against her beliefs. When someone has deep beliefs and others can deny them there business and income because of them something is very wrong. The business owner under the law at the time had every right to do as she did (no state law stated that anyone could not be denied service for reasons other than race discrimination) and the new proposed law is just to reinforce that law and allow religious beliefs be a reason for service denial) which would have allowed the authorities to move the picketers far enough away to allow others to enter, as it was they did not do so because they feared it would inflame the situation and they would be targeted. A sad end to a simple story. To have to do something that your conscience tells you is wrong is not having freedom. If someone were to pass a law demanding YOU or anyone you care for did something you felt so strongly was wrong you might feel that a 'law' needed to be written to protect them. While I do not personally know the people involved I do know people who have worked places in jobs they loved but had to leave them because they could not in good conscience perform certain duties that had not been made clear when they originally were hired, new protocols were put into effect that they could not refuse to comply with. That is why I feel so strongly that NO ONE should be forced by government decree to go against their deep seated religious beliefs.
Mark and Deborah, thank you for your kind words and adding to the conversation. I couldn't agree with you more.
ReplyDeleteSue, Mark did not say you are for or against abortion, but it's another point of similar contention and he was using it an example. I think you are taking our opposing views as an assault, and I can tell you for sure that is not my intention. I am truly horrified by this proposal, and how someone as intelligent as yourself can stand behind it. You really aren't seeing the travesty. I'm not trying to insult you, this is a scarey reality in my opinion.
Thank you for shedding a little more light on the Arizona issue - Personally, I'm disgusted with the baker who wouldn't make a cake for a gay couple. There is no bible or religious document that says "do not make cakes for people who are gay or lesbian". No, that act was just pure prejudice, rudeness, -bigotry-..and again... poor treatment of a fellow human in the name of "religion".
Sue,
ReplyDeleteYou are assuming I was referring to the Bible. You are so blinded and dependent on your religious freedoms that you fail to recognize the discriminations that your religious freedoms infer on others. For the record I AM a Bigot. I am Bigoted against small minds. If laws like these are passed then business owners should be legally required to post their religious beliefs on the wall in the form of a 'No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service' type of sign so that people can freely choose who to do business with without the inconvenience of having to ask. Mark
Mark If the book of 'fiction' you referred to was not the bible then please enlighten me as to what book you were referring to.
ReplyDeleteKaren, if Mark was not trying to infer that I would deny a woman the right to an abortion then why the statement "yes Sue I said it" He inferred that I am a bigot, and a 'religious zealot'. So who is the one with the 'small mind'????? I am saddened this discussion disintegrated into name calling. It seems that a true difference of opinion and dare I say it religious belief can't be discussed these days without someone having to try to demonize the opposition. That too is a sad commentary on the state this country. I have not and never would discriminate against someone for their beliefs, lifestyle, color, lack of belief and that is why I hate it when someone who does have a true belief demonized for having it. If freedom means we all have to just believe the same then I don't want to be free.
Mark, perhaps you would also wish that not only do people put their religion on their business signs so someone can decide to patronize them or not, perhaps they should also wear a cross, a Jewish star etc. in plain sight so others would be able to see it and socialize with them or not depending on their belief/desire. Hmmmm, that reminds me of something that happened once before, I'm sure it will come to me eventually.............
I will continue to read any comments but will no longer participate as I do not wish to add to name calling. I am truly sorry Karen that it came to that, it was NOT my desire.
Oh, and Mark, please don't be sad, I am not what you believe me to be and although you will believe what you want (and that I a freedom I glad you have), just because I am defending the RIGHT of AZ to pass or not the proposed law it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it. But if it does pass then I would certainly abide by it just as I do the right of a woman to have an abortion. Fortunately in this country we STILL have the right to disagree with a law even if we do have to abide by it.
ReplyDeleteAny marriage where either of the parties is an idiot or lunatic is null and void.
ReplyDeletefor Sue O - this is a law still on the books in Rhode Island. Here's a link to Dumb Laws in these United States.
http://www.dumblaws.com
. . . and I GET it. You are DEFENDING . . . blah blah blah
I'm not being disrespectful, I'm not. I simply want to point out that just because we have a voice doesn't mean we should keep singing.
I see a little more going on here. To quote Karen, "Just sayin'."
I would like to compliment Sue O on not talking down to anyone or becoming angry in explaining her beliefs during these posts. However, I'm surprised at the way Karen, Mark and Deborah have all done both of those things. I'm sure that businesses will not be asking people if they are gay or not. But I am sure that some people may be offended by public displays of affection. I'm not homophobic I'm just stating what I think may be the case. And if that IS the case then I'm all for THE RIGHTS OF THE BUSINESS OWNER.
ReplyDeleteMy name is Kelly I live in New Jersey. I know it says anonymous but that was how I had to sign in.
Dear Kelly of New Jersey - I was not angry nor did I talk down to Sue O. Stating that I believe something different and giving the explanation as to WHY.. is not anger or talking her down. As for people being offended by public displays of affection... how would you feel if you held your significant others hand or kissed him/her in an affectionate moment and were then asked to leave the premises? I think it's safe to say you'd be pretty horrified by that business owners behavior. So why should it be any different for anyone else? We are all equal, Kelly. This is the point you miss completely when you support a bill such as the one proposed in Arizona.
ReplyDeleteThe reason you see anger in these responses is because of the clear injustice to human beings. Our history is rife with it, and the behavior continues to this day with prejudices such as these. It was the right of business owners years ago to refuse blacks.. For a while it was the right of a certain other man in history to exterminate jews. Extremes? yes.. but same mentality. I'll say it one more time... with the passing of a law such as the one in Arizona on the table, we are giving business owners the right to treat a human being horribly, simply because we don't like their particular lifestyle.
I know I said I would no longer participate in this debate but I do have to admit I am curious, Deborah, please enlighten me as to what "more" is going on here? Veiled comments like that I find fascinating.
ReplyDeleteKelly, thank you for the compliment about how I handled this debate, I agree that the comment that both praised me for being intelligent but was apparently too 'stupid' (my interpretation) to understand that my believing that religious rights should be defended even if they offend some people did appear that I WAS being talked down to. But I am not offended because I know that Karen is very passionate in her beliefs and I WOULD DEFEND HER RIGHT TO THEM EVEN IF I FELT THEY WERE WRONG which is the point I have been trying to make!
ReplyDeleteSue.. if I ever treat someone poorly because of my own personal religious beliefs or rights to be whatever kind of jerk I want to be, I don't want you to defend my right to do so. I would rather you were outraged by the poor treatment of the victim of my abuse.
Your point has been loud and clear from the start. You don't have to keep repeating it so that you are understood. We got it the first time, honestly. We just don't agree and have given you the reasons. When we disagree, you think we don't understand. I guess that goes both ways.
Apologies Sue O - I wasn't clear in my intention behind that statement. I just wanted to point out that there are some bad laws on the books everywhere.
ReplyDeleteI do get what point you are trying to make, but I felt I wanted to make a point as well. I know you will agree with that yes?
Believe me, I'm not smart enough to have anything subversive going on.
Carry on!
Hi it's Kelly
ReplyDeleteThank you for writing back Karen & Sue. My point of the business owner having the right to serve or not serve in their establishment is not a personal one. I tired to say that I am not against any people and in saying that I am not against the business owner who wants the right to create the business they want. I am for the rights of all people is what I was saying.
Thanks again.
Deborah, no apology necessary I was just curious about the statement "I see a little more going on here. To quote Karen, "Just sayin'"
ReplyDeleteKelly, the right of a business to do what their "vision" or beliefs tell them to is the ONLY thing I was defending so THANK YOU for understanding that!
And Karen, You are right, I will NEVER understand how in a country that was founded on religious freedom the right to follow that religions teachings can be against the law! If I remember right the First Amendment states that not only shall Congress make no law Establishing a religion but also may not PROHIBIT the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF! I would think that would ensure the right of a business owner to conduct their business according to their religious belief. I am not trying to change YOUR mind I am just stating that I don't believe that exercising a constitutional right should be against the law.
Again, the wonderful thing about America is that we don't all have to have the same beliefs, it wouldn't BE America if we didn't have that freedom.
I know you disagree with the proposed law and as I said before it is YOUR RIGHT to disagree. I just think that saying "how someone as intelligent as yourself can stand behind it" sure does sound like "being talked down to".
ReplyDeleteSue O, my intention with that remark was not to condescend, and for that -tone- I will apologize.
What I should have said is that it always surprises me when people of obvious intelligence side with what I see as a real injustice to a particular group of people based on their religious beliefs or political gains, or the protection or rights even when they are clearly discriminatory, etc.
IN this particular case, you are standing up for the business owners rights, I get it. But in doing so, a large portion of our population is being discriminated against unfairly. I just can't get past that fact to give a darn about the business owner who wants to behave in such a way for any reason. I don't feel a law should protect them in that case. I think they should be held accountable. What is difference between this new law and racism, which I'm sure you will agree is WRONG on any level. And where do we draw the line then? How about we just don't draw that line.. and treat all humans equally. And design laws so that this is the case. Wouldn't that be a wonderful world.
I think we've exhausted this topic and I'll end my part on that note. No offense intended.
"If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" -- Interview aboard the Papal Plane after World Youth Day in Brazil.
ReplyDeleteIf the Pope doesn't judge, who are we to. I believe when you know better you do better. I don't think this particular law is what are forefathers had in mine.
The last line should read our forefathers.
ReplyDelete